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 Back in a Formula Again 
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Didn't get much accomplished over the holidays unfortunately, however the progress is slowly coming along.

Finally finished up undercoating the floor pans.

.....& had another delivery waiting at the front door when I got home Wed. night!

My G1 adapter came in!

ImageWP_20150109_001 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

I burned a test chip & installed it in the car to ensure everything is working correctly.

ImageWP_20150109_002 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

She fired right up!! Everything seems to be functioning as it should.

I don't expect to be doing any tuning on it right away when it comes out in the spring, however everything is now in place to be able to keep the tune updated when I do start modifying the car.


Last edited by auto_god on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Decided to pull a plug & have a look inside one of the cylinders this morning just to get a feel for what sort of condition the internals are in before I starting putting any significant amount of money into this thing. :ohno

I was very pleased to see the cross hatch marks are still clearly visible (at least on the cylinder I checked, LOL!). Wear appears to be minimal! That's a relief! :D

ImageWP_20150224_001 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr


Last edited by auto_god on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:21 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Got some go fast parts today!!

ImageWP_20150126_001 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

Originally my build plan involved running a Comp XR264HR cam, but the deal on this cam was just too good to pass up. The duration is a little longer than I had originally planned to run......but it should sound wicked at the very least!

At this point, installation is going to be next winter's project, just couldn't pass up the deal!


Last edited by auto_god on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:40 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
A while back during the research/planning stage of getting some extra steam out of this car, like most of us I spent quite a bit of time cruising around Thirdgen.org gathering information. As is typical on the internet, there is a crap load of less than correct info out there, so rather than rely on that, after I finished cleaning the heads from a couple posts up, I took some measurements to see where I stand & what I need to do to proceed.

First order of business was to determine what sort of lift these heads would support. The typical responses I found during my reading was "anything up to about .480" lift should be fine".

ImageWP_20150126_002 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

Maybe I got the one bastard pair of 083 heads out of the hundreds of thousands produced, but I measured seal to retainer contact @ .460" on average....one cylinder was as tight as .435".

Alright then.....that needs to be addressed before the cam goes in with its .503" lift!!

I do have a plan!


Last edited by auto_god on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:44 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
One of the other things that really stood out to me when I first brought my heads home was the size (& I assumed the weight) of the retainers.

SBC retainer on the left, modern beehive style retainer right (this particular one from a supercharged 3800 V6)

ImageWP_20141205_002 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

I then put them on the scale to see what sort of difference in weight there is.

SBC intake side 32 grams.
SBC exhaust side 42 grams!!!

LS style beehive retainer.........11 grams!!!

Additionally, it looked like the modern LS style retainer would greatly improve the retainer to seal distance too.

That got the gears turning.......hmmmm......

For giggles I popped the LS retainers on to take some measurements to see if this may be a solution to my max lift problem. (& yes I realize these aren't the correct retainer/lock combination.....this was just to see if there was merit in further researching doing a beehive spring swap).

ImageWP_20150126_003 by Shane Hewitt, on Flickr

In this configuration retainer to seal contact occurs @ .563". If you look closely at the locks/retainer they clearly don't locate the retainer correctly.......I'm guesstimating the correct combo should likely locate the retainer .050'ish further up the valve giving .600" + retainer to seal clearance.......excellent! In reality, there is a groove on the intake valve where an o-ring sits in the OE configuration that would go into the seal at .545'ish lift, so it would be best to limit lift to something below that or the seals will have a very short life span & oil consumption would be horrendous, but this setup should easily cover the .503" I need for my newly acquired cam!

So, given that I'm going to have to get new springs anyway, it would make sense to switch over to some modern stuff!

These appear to be my solution. These retainers allow for the use of Beehive springs on conventional SBC heads. That is the plan as of right now.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-787-16


Last edited by auto_god on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.



Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:21 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Nice work through.

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12.1 @ 112 mph 1.69 60'

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
It's good that you're measuring everything.

A high-lift cam usually has an avalanche effect.

The springs need to match the cam for travel and pressure at a very specific, predetermined, installation height. That usually means new springs, spring retainers, and hardened locks. The higher lift cam pushes the rocker/valve deeper but also side to side a bit more. Roller rockers are more accurate and are the natural progression/solution. Hardened push-rods are next...

If the heads were rebuilt. The seats may have been touched with a grinding stone. You may require spring-shims to insure all the springs are at the correct installation height across the board.

Looks like you're having fun!

Cheers,
Ken

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Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:37 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Agreed! Can't take too many measurements! Next step will be getting the retainers I listed to see what sort of installed height I wind up with. Spring selection after that (although I have a set in mind assuming the installed height lands where I expect it to.)


Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:34 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
They never end up where they are supposed to be. That's why you make them right with the shims.

The cam manufacturer already did the math for you and made a recommendation in the instructions. Don't stray from the path. Cross reference the part number if you want to buy a different brand of spring like Crane etc... But don't deviate from the manufacturers recommendation.

Cheers,
Ken

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1996 Z-28/SS

Previously - 1996 Z-28, 1989 Pontiac GTA, 1985 5.7 IROC Z-28, 1976 Camaro LT, 1974 Trans Am 455HO, 1974 Z-28, 1967 Firebird Sprint,
1967 Camaro 230 cu-in 140-hp "Blue Flame" straight six with a 2-speed powerglide.


Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:46 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Kensredzed wrote:
They never end up where they are supposed to be. That's why you make them right with the shims.

The cam manufacturer already did the math for you and made a recommendation in the instructions. Don't stray from the path. Cross reference the part number if you want to buy a different brand of spring like Crane etc... But don't deviate from the manufacturers recommendation.

Cheers,
Ken


Yes, I realize the final installed height is set via shimming to where you need it to be.......but, need to be sure I'm playing in the right ball park before I start swinging!! I'd like to get the retainers here & measure where the installed height naturally lands.. I haven't been able to find info as to whether those retainers give an installed height in the 1.7'ish range like normal small block stuff or closer to 1.8'ish like the LS stuff, or somewhere in between......that makes a HUGE difference! You can't have too much information at your disposal!!

With respect to Lunati's recommended springs, they are conventional SBC style springs, so cross referencing kinda goes out the window given that I'm planning to upgrade to beehives, but you can be assured that I'll be paying VERY close attention to achieving their recommended pressures. It probably seems like overkill upgrading to beehives on a TPI motor that will likely be lucky to see 5500 rpm, but I just enjoy the challenge of walking down the road less traveled!

I kind of chuckle to myself a bit when I play around with this stuff now......25 years ago when I was in Aircraft Engine Overhaul class I used to think my professor was such a hard ass.....seemed like every other thing he said was "Measure! Measure! Measure!". Now that I'm a lot older, a little wiser, & a lot more patient, my opinion has changed......maybe that professor knew something......I'm also happy his message got through too!

Realistically, these heads & the cam likely won't be going on till NEXT winter, so I have all the time in the world to play around with this stuff to ensure everything is correct.


Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:03 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Yup I agree..measure the installed height and just don't slam some springs in there.

Check out PAC racing springs when looking around. http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive/Store/1
I had these on my LT1 and are in my new LQ4.. I got my latest 1218's for $150 shipped in the US.

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Formerly 95 LT1 [LE2.2]/T56/4.11 9 Bolt..12.6@114MPH


Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:41 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
Ive used those comp beehive retainers on a couple LT1's and the install height is in the 1.78 area. Comp sells +.050 and -.050 keepers if you need them. Likely want to get a valve spring mic to make life easier. Don't get the "beehive" one like I did because the larger valve stem in the sbc meant I had to ream out my brand new tool!

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Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:32 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
flame wrote:
Ive used those comp beehive retainers on a couple LT1's and the install height is in the 1.78 area. Comp sells +.050 and -.050 keepers if you need them. Likely want to get a valve spring mic to make life easier. Don't get the "beehive" one like I did because the larger valve stem in the sbc meant I had to ream out my brand new tool!


That is excellent information! I was hoping the installed height you quoted was going to be the case (I'll still be measuring on my heads to be sure, but I'd be surprised if my results vary much from yours)


Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:45 pm
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
So this morning I went on Lunati's website to get the specs on their recommended springs for my cam. The open pressure seemed a little on the high side to me, so for giggles I brought up the cam cards for several other cams from their mildest EFI Compatible Hydraulic Roller to their wildest VooDoo Hydraulic Roller & guess what.......same spring listed for every cam I pulled up :roll:

Clearly the spring requirements of their 258/268 EFI Hydraulic Roller & their 294/302 Voodoo Hydraulic Roller (& my LT4 Hotcam Clone cam in the middle) are not going to be the same, so it would seem their spring recommendation is of limited help to me.


Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:24 am
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Post Re: Back in a Formula Again
You wont need quite as much pressure with the lighter weight beehive spring and retainer. Im sure the 918 would work fine.

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Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:59 am
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